You are speaking live with Serene, who is a member of The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in
this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official
statement of the Church.
Serene:
Hello What brings you to mormon.org?
Toni:
Hello
Toni:
I had a question on something on your web site
Serene:
When you were learning from the missionaries years ago, were you
eventually baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints?
Toni:
?
Serene:
Ok
Toni:
I think you typed in the wrong window.
Toni:
I had a question from the page which talks about agency and the
fall of Adam and Eve.
Serene:
ok
Serene:
Go ahead
Toni:
The page says "They had moral agency, or the ability to choose
between good and evil, which made it possible for them to learn
and progress."
Toni:
When did they have moral agency?
Serene:
from the beginning- they were given commandments in the Garden
Serene:
and they had the choice to live them or break them
Toni:
How did agency make it possible for them to learn and progress?
Serene:
how about this analogy:
Toni:
can we use Adam and Eve in your analogy?
Serene:
sure. would Adam and Eve fully appreciated Thanksgiving dinner if
they had never been hungry?
Toni:
Did Adam and Eve eat in the Garden of Eden before the fall?
Serene:
I don't know. There is no record of them eating food, so we don't
know
Serene:
but they did eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good
and evil
Toni:
Where they hungry when they ate from that tree?
Toni:
From the web page, it says agency is choosing between good and
evil.
Serene:
maybe. Choosing and then experiencing the consequences helps us
learn so that as we grow, we can make choices that will help us
based on what has already happened
Toni:
So the choice (the consequence of agency) makes you learn and
progress?
Serene:
The act of deciding, and learning from the consequences, both
help.
Toni:
So Adam and Eve making an evil choice made it possible for them
to learn and progress?
Serene:
We do not regard their choice as evil. It is a transgression,
rather than a sin
Toni:
When they did have agency?
Serene:
From the moment they were created, they were imbued with the
ability to choose
Toni:
Between good and evil?
Serene:
To choose. Having no concept of Good and Evil, they were innocent
Toni:
If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, how did they
have agency?
Serene:
Ok, if I put chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream in
front of you, and you have never tasted either, you can still
pick one
Toni:
Right.
Toni:
But how did agency (the ability to choose good or evil) enable
Adam and Eve to learn and progress?
Toni:
Did Adam and Eve progress by having a choice or making a choice?
Serene:
Both were necessary
Toni:
So making a good and evil choice and necessary for us to learn
and progress?
Technical difficulties resulted in the chat session closing.
I closed the window and resumed the conversation.
You are speaking live with Serene, who is a member of The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Information provided in
this session is to provide assistance only and is not an official
statement of the Church.
Toni:
Hi
Toni:
Looks like we were disconnected.
Serene:
yes, sorry
Toni:
You said last that making a good and evil choice are necessary
for us to learn and progress.
Serene:
I said making a choice is necessary.
Serene:
It is not necessary to make an evil choice.
Serene:
Jesus Christ and his perfect life illustrate this.
Toni:
So Adam and Eve progressed by making an evil choice, but we are
to only make good choices to progress?
Serene:
You might have missed my previous statement on the subject, that
their choice was not an 'evil' choice
Toni:
You said Adam and Eve had agency before the fall.
Toni:
How could they have agency without making a choice between good
or evil?
Toni:
The same web pages says wrong choices lead to sin.
Serene:
Have you read from the book of mormon before? I can send you a
link that may help clarify things for you
Toni:
Send me a link if you can.
Serene:
http://www.scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2
(This URL is opening in the browser window that you opened the
chat window from.)
Toni:
Which verse?
Serene:
it is discussed throuout the chapter
Toni:
At the top, it says agency is essential to existence and
progression.
Toni:
Freedom of choice.
Serene:
yes
Toni:
Which is true or these?
Toni:
a) a good choice leads to progression?
Serene:
Perhaps my earlier reference to good and evil is what has
confused you. In life we may find we are faced with choices
between good, better and best. that would obviously still require
us
Toni:
b) an evil choice leads to progression?
Serene:
to exercise our agency
Toni:
c) both a good and evil choice leads to progression?
Toni:
a b or c?
Serene:
The ability to choice itself is what is necessary for progression
Serene:
c would apply only if someone learns from the consequences and
repents, in the example of Adam and Eve, we know they chose to
follow all god's other commandments
Toni:
In the context of Adam and Eve, is a,b, or c true?
Serene:
You will notice the website makes the distinction between
'agency' and 'moral agency'
Serene:
the ability to choose, vs the ability to choose BETWEEN good and
evil
[Editor's comment: make a special note of this]
Toni:
I see. Thanks for that.
Serene:
before the fall they had agency. They made a choice, which I have
previously stated was a transgression, not a sin, and was not an
evil choice. In so doing, they gained a mixture of consequences.
Toni:
What is agency?
Serene:
They gained frail mortal bodies subject to death and sickness,
and physical separation from God ( negative)
Serene:
and they gained moral agency and the ability to learn, have
children etc (postive)
Toni:
ok.
Toni:
What is agency?
Serene:
Agency = The ability and privilege God gives people to choose and
to act for themselves.
Serene:
The ability to make a choice. It doesn't matter what between.
Marshmallows or chocolate chips.
Serene:
Sit down or stand up. Any choice.
Toni:
So agency has nothing to do with making an evil or good choice?
Serene:
MORAL AGENCY = good vs bad. AGENCY = chocolate chips or
marshmallows.
[Editor's comment: this is not what the LDS Church teaches.
See chapter 4 in the 2009 Gospel Principles training manual. Here are some
quotes:
"The right to choose between good and evil and to act for ourselves is called
agency" (page 17).
"God’s commandments direct us away from danger and toward eternal life. By
choosing wisely, we will gain exaltation, progress eternally, and enjoy perfect
happiness (see 2 Nephi 2:27–28)" (page 20).
The LDS version of Adam and Eve chose wisely because they could not have
progressed without following the temptation of the devil.]
Serene:
Sorry, sometimes within the church, the two are used
interchangably, because it is assumed people know the difference
Toni:
Ok. So they didn't have moral agency before the fall, right?
Serene:
They just had regular agency. If you don't know good from bad,
you can't choose good vs bad. You don't understand the choice
properly.
Serene:
Like little children
Toni:
So following the temptation of the devil was not an evil choice.
Serene:
No.
Toni:
How was Adam and Eve following that temptation considered evil?
Serene:
Merely a transgression; it was disobedient to an instruction from
God, so they had to take the consequences of that choice. But it
does not mean that we are evil or that Adam and Eve made an evil
choice.
Toni:
So they made a choice that was neither evil nor good?
Serene:
It is considered disobedience to God's commandments, which we
know is wrong, but it in and of itself is not evil or good.
Toni:
I'm confused.
Toni:
Disobedience to God is not evil nor good?
Serene:
Toni, how old are you?
Toni:
I'm a woman. We are not quick to mention our age.
Toni:
I'm 47 :-)
Serene:
I'm in my mid twenties, and I'm just about hitting the stage I
might consider being economical with the truth about it *smiles*
Serene:
Ok, were you able to read much of the chapter I sent?
Toni:
You said before that Adam and Eve received blessings when they
disobeyed God.
Toni:
a little.
Toni:
I need to go soon, so I will read it later.
Toni:
The part about blessings, it that a correct statement?
Serene:
God gave two commandments 1)multiply 2)don't eat forbidden fruit
Serene:
In their state of innocence, they could not obey the first.
Toni:
I catch that part.
Serene:
God created a choice, to 'get the ball rolling' if you will, of
them making choices.
Toni:
When they disobeyed, they were blessed.
Serene:
They were shown mercy. Inheriting physical bodies prone to
sickness and frailty, and having to work for their food and
experience pain and sorrow, must not have seemed much of a
blessing
Toni:
What do you mean they inherited a physical body?
Toni:
What type of body did they have before the fall?
Serene:
Ok, in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had bodies just like
God's. Perfect and immortal.
Toni:
Physical?
Serene:
Then after the fall, they changed to become like the ones you and
I have
Serene:
Physical, yes. We are created in the image of
Serene:
God
Serene:
Toni, I can't see the beginning of our conversation anymore since
you disconnected. What is your religious background?
Toni:
What did you mean by "they were shown mercy, inheriting physical
bodies"?
Serene:
There was a full stop, not a comma.
Toni:
I am a Christian, from a baptist church
Serene:
They were unrelated sentences
Toni:
You said
Toni:
They were shown mercy. Inheriting physical bodies prone to
sickness and frailty, and having to work for their food and
experience pain and sorrow, must not have seemed much of a
blessing
Toni:
When did they inherit physical bodies?
Serene:
They were created with perfect physical bodies like God's. Then
their bodies changed to become mortal when they were kicked out
of the garden.
Toni:
ok. So all these things were blessings even though it seemed not
to be blessings, right?
Serene:
They are necessary for us, in order for us to be able to have
blessings, such as the opportunity to progress, that is where the
mercy comes in
Toni:
Are there other blessings that we get from God when Adam and Eve
(or the rest of us) follow the temptations of the devil?
Serene:
No
Serene:
We do not get blessings for disobeying the commandments God has
given us. But we are given the mercy of Jesus Christ and the
chance to repent.
Toni:
Are Adam and Eve the only people to have received blessings for
following the devil?
Serene:
I am sorry, Toni, I don't seem to have been able to make myself
clear enough to be understood.
Toni:
You're making sense.
Toni:
Your last statement refers to us, but I was wondering if Adam and
Eve were the only people ever to receive blessings for following
the temptations of the devil?
Serene:
I'm afraid I am really not following you. You appear to
understand, then you summarise what I have said in such a way as
to contradict what I have taught.
Toni:
Don't mean too.
Serene:
God KNEW what they would choose. He knows all of us perfectly.
Serene:
It was a part of His plan, that they make that choice
Toni:
That makes sense, but are the only ones to receive blessings by
following the devil?
Serene:
In this instance, the devil didn't realise he was doing just what
God expected. So it wasn't really following the devil, it was a
part of God's plan. Therefore the blessings are not connected
with following the devil in the way you are suggesting
Toni:
Could they have received these blessings without following the
devil?
Serene:
The Fall was a necessary step in man’s progress. Because God knew
that the Fall would occur, he had planned in the premortal life
for a Savior. Jesus Christ came in the meridian of time to atone
for the fall of Adam and also for man’s individual sins on c
Serene:
ross
Serene:
Would you like to meet up again to talk more about your
questions? And to learn more about the beliefs of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints?
Toni:
I understand the part that God knew the fall would occur, but did
He want it to occur?
Toni:
Maybe I will read more online befor a face to face.
Serene:
Would you like to meet up again to talk more about your
questions? And to learn more about the beliefs of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints?
Serene:
Over the internet or telephone is what I am offering?
Toni:
Ok. I see what you mean. I have to go to.
Toni:
I suppose I could come back next week if I am in this area.
Toni:
Now I am in a coffee shop.
Toni:
It's been a long and interesting chat.
Serene:
You will receive the same answers to your questions today as I
have given you, as missionaries, we all teach the same truths
about the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Serene:
I hope you found it helpful.
Serene:
you made me want to die
Toni:
Yes, Very helpful. Especially the part about agency vs. moral
agency.
Serene:
Sorry, that was in the wrong window. I had copied something
Toni:
:-)
Serene:
I am glad I was able to help you to understand that distinction.
Toni:
Hopefully I did not want to make you want to die :-)
Serene:
You are always welcome to return to mormon.org
Toni:
Well, I'm over my 10 minutes now, running late.
Toni:
Thanks.
Serene:
Ok, if ever you have further questions, reading the book of
mormon online is a great way to help you
Toni:
Will do.
Serene:
understand concepts that are difficult to understand in the
bible.
Toni:
ok
Serene:
Have a great day!
Toni:
You too. Gotta run.
Toni:
Bye
Serene:
Take care!